Editor’s Note: The following is a series of interviews insideIRAN.org will be conducting with young people in Iran regarding the first anniversary of the disputed presidential election in 2009.
Q: Will you be going to the Saturday protest? Do you think your friends will be going?
A: What a hard question! I’m still debating it. I haven’t made up my mind. I want to go. But I don’t know if my parents will let me. They’ve already forbidden my sisters from going out from the night before. But if they allow me to go, I will definitely go.
I only have 3 friends that I know who are going for sure. They’ve already prepared their gear, their clothes and cigarettes. But these are my high school friends, who are very hardheaded; extremely brave but hardheaded who don’t even think about what will happen to them.
When you go out on Saturday, you have to have your will ready. You have to kiss your family and bid them farewell. Remember the stories we heard about the soldiers who went off to war [Iran-Iraq war] not knowing if they will come back? Remember the religious mourning songs we were told they sang? That’s exactly how it is now because they know they will not return.
Q: Then why do you say you will go if you can?
A: Because I want what we have to survive. It seems to me that everything we achieved is growing very dim now, almost fading. Well, not fading, but it’s growing smaller and smaller. And it needs a big boost. It needs someone to give it a real good shove.
But I understand my parents. Because whoever goes, is going while knowing that he might not come back. That he might die or he might be taken away with no word for months. He might be raped and all sorts of horrible things might happen to him. The risks are just too high now. I personally think nothing will happen on Saturday; just small clutters of people will appear here and there that government forces will beat and arrest and the whole thing will end. I don’t think the reformists will be given a permit. It’s truly, truly frightening. The families just won’t let their kids go. I understand why.
But, who knows? I think the government did a wonderful thing by insulting Khomeini’s family and not letting Hassan Khomeini speak, it was a great thing they did for us just days before June 12th. That will bring some principalists on our side and will turn some principlists against Ahmadinejad – not against the leader of course. But that’s good enough. Ahmadinejad’s gang is a very, very dangerous group. They don’t even believe in Khomeini, much less Khamenei who is not even a marja [source of emulation]. They will even sideline Khamenei the first chance they get.
I just wish they had insulted Khomeini’s family more. Not only will it turn more principalists against Ahmadinejad, but I generally like any insult directed at Khomeini (laughs). We’re not allowed to insult him, but let Ahmadinejad insult him for us.
Q: Do you think there will be no more street protests?
A: Yes, I definitely think so.
Q: What is going to happen to the Green Movement?
A: I definitely don’t think that street protests are the only manifestation of the green movement. But, I also think that the green movement has entered a phase that will take a long time for it to reach any outcomes.
Maybe if street protests had continued, it would have gotten outcomes sooner. But this outcome may have been total defeat. But now that street protests have ended, we have entered a phase where I feel that in our lifetime at least, we will not see its victory. So maybe that’s what some people mean when they say the movement is “dead”, that’s what they mean when they use that word, but I don’t think it’s dead, it’s reached a very different phase, a very slow phase.
Q: What do you mean that if street protests had continued, the outcome would have been defeat?
A: If people had remained in the street, if the demonstrations would have continued, the government would have brought tanks into the streets. And there would have been a horrendous mass killing, worse than anything we could have ever imagined. It would have been leagues worse than what happened. And the Green Movement would have been truly and literally dead – it would have been killed.
As bad as things are now, there are still active people. People who are writing articles, writing on walls, writing on money, who are active online, people who try to put out leaflets, you go to buy stuff at the grocery store and you see the lady’s green bracelet peaking out. You see the movement here and there, you hear it. And if that scenario had happened, if street protests had continued, all these people would have been dead or completely silenced. The movement would have suffered an even bigger blow; because of course the government wasn’t going to back down now, was it?
Q: What do you mean by “outcomes”? What sort of “outcomes” do you see for the Green Movement?
A: Personally I would want, before anything else, for the president and the parliament to be changed around. For instance, I think Ahmadinejad has to come down, and someone like Mousavi has to become president. And if that were to happen, just like Khatami’s time, the parliament too would become more moderate.
But I don’t mean an abrupt, sudden change like a revolution. I have no desire for a revolution. I think the outcome of that would be terrible. Because what we need is gradual change. We still have a very traditional, religious country. Our people have to see what freedom is first. They have to know that if we have “freedom” that won’t mean that someone will come and forcefully take their hijab off their heads.
When I talk to those friends of mine who work in factories, they say that the workers are really afraid of Mousavi. The workers say that we are worried that Mousavi will come to power and will try to take the hijab off our wives and will force us to be Western or whatever. They think freedom means being a certain way, rather than a will to be what you want to be.
I am not even so sure there was fraud in the election anymore. Because I was talking to my friends, well to the five friends who remained in Iran, it seems everyone has left. But a few of my friends work as project managers and engineers in factories. And they say things such as “In the factory I work as a manager, from the four engineers, three are pro-Mousavi. But from the 40 workers, 35 are pro-Ahmadinejad.” So Ahmadinejad does have a base of support. That needs to change. That won’t happen through a revolution.
Figuring all this stuff out takes a lot of time. It won’t happen overnight. The problem isn’t just our government; I think our people need time to think through things.
Q: Will you be going to the Saturday protest? Do you think your friends will be going?
Mina: I’m not going; I know a few of my friends who are thinking of going.
Q: Why do you think that is? Why are people staying away?
Mina: Well, I’d have to begin my dividing people into different groups. Some are simply pressured by their families not to go. Either because their families are scared or, I know lots of kids who aren’t going because someone in their close family has a government job or something, and the parents are afraid that their children will be seen with the pro-green protesters.
Then there’s another group that simply is too frightened to go. I’m a part of this group. Things can just get too dangerous.
There’s another group that’s simply lost hope in the leaders of the movement. They are the ones who thought everything would change overnight, just like they thought things would change overnight with Khatami. And when it didn’t, they were very disappointed and distraught. But they also ask themselves questions I also agree with: in regard to all the bloodshed and imprisonment we faced in the streets, what have these leaders done? A lot of people ask themselves that question, I know I do. And maybe the leaders weren’t in a position to do anything, but still, we can’t help asking ourselves that. And since we can’t find an answer for it, some of just let it go all together. They’ve become completely indifferent.
I went to most of the protests last year and talked to a lot of people. You could find people who were there because of the high price of meat, rent, poultry – people who were there because of their immediate economic problems and they were hoping that those problems would be solved by them joining the protest. But nothing was solved and things only got worse and worse. So these people have changed strategy now and they are sticking to the little trinkets that they have, they are really scared of losing that too. They are afraid that if they show up, they will lose everything. So they don’t even bother with discussions like this or anything about the green movement.
If they [the government] hadn’t created such a horrific, frightening environment, every little change like inflation, the bad economy, etc would have created a new wave of protest. That’s how things were last year; people were ready to protest for everything. But everyone is so fearful that even if prices just jump tenfold tomorrow, nobody will dare do anything anymore.
Q: Do you think anyone will go on Saturday?
Mina: Let me tell you about those who are going tomorrow:
Some belong to the group that is preparing itself for the worst. They are so firm in their convictions that they are ready to lose anything and everything for what they believe in. Others have lost their loved ones and they don’t care anymore about what they lose. It is their sense of loss that will carry them out in the streets.
Or, they are intellectuals who are just too fed up with the government but they aren’t in prison yet, and they know they will be soon, so they have nothing to lose. Or, like some of my friends, they are young students. You know that Persian expression “they’re head smells like stew” [meaning: they are young and oblivious to danger] and they want to insist on their beliefs. They’re not ready for the best or the worst, they just don’t care. They’re young and they don’t think things through.
Those who go will have a very, very difficult day ahead of them, because there are so many police forces in the street for all sorts of reasons: militias, hejab police, morality police, etc etc. the city is so filled with government forces that the protesters won’t have anywhere to run or hide.
All in all, I would say that people will go, but not like last year. And people will be crushed, much worse than last year.
Q: What do you think about the future of the Green Movement?
Mina: Let me get a little romantic. I see it more like a blossom on a tree. It takes time to grow into a full apple and then fall from the tree. History is repeating itself. But it will take time for the apple to ripen and fall. When they greet fists with bullets, they are inevitably leading us towards a revolution just like 30 years ago. In our country, history seems to repeat itself every 30 years.
Q: Will you be going to the Saturday protest? Do you think your friends will be going?
Niloo: No, of course not! I haven’t lost my mind! I have a very important exam. Besides, I’ll be honest with you, I’d be really, really scared to go. If they arrest me, worse, if I get a concussion or some sort of terrible injury, who’s going to be responsible? Who’s going to come to my aid? Going, for anyone, would be pure insanity. I think most students around here think the same way I do. No one I know is going at least.
And I’m not even from the Tehran, my parents live all the way around the country. Imagine what my parents would go through if they found out something had happened to me. Remember last year when the dorms were raided? My mother couldn’t stop crying, even though I was with her at the time. She kept thinking of all those parents who were so far from their kids, who were only hearing the news from other people.
Q: What if you knew your security would be guaranteed? Then would you go?
Niloo: For instance, if they had a permit for the protest and I didn’t have exams, I might have gone. If I knew it would have been safe and if I didn’t have anything else to do, I would go. But would I drop everything I was doing and go even if it was safe? No. I’m tired of this stuff.
Q: What are you tired of?
Niloo: I think street protests have to end but I don’t have a clue what we should do instead. But regarding street protests, not only is it that less and less people show up and it ends up humiliating the movement, but it’s creating problems for us in everything else. With every word of protest, they start bothering and harassing us in the street. You barely walk out before they come after you. They come after us for hejab, for walking with the opposite sex, for everything. When there was no street protest, at least we didn’t have to deal with this harassment every day.
Q: What do you think has happened to the Green Movement?
Niloo: All in all, everyone is quiet now. You can say they are indifferent. I’m one of them.
Q: You turned your profile picture green on facebook. Did all our other friends do the same? What is that supposed to mean?
Niloo: Ok, you’re right. No, you’re right. Let me rephrase, I put it in a really bad way. We are all green inside, but life has to go on. We can’t stay in that state that we were in last year, forever. We have exams; we have families and friends; we have a life. We can’t stay up in the air. We are still green, we still believe in the green movement, we still talk about things every day, but we’re also living our life. That’s how it is now. That’s how it should be. I know in other places you like to see us in the street all the time, but just like you, we have a life (laughs). Don’t forget that we have a life!
Q: Will you be going to the Saturday protest? Do you think your friends will be going?
Saman: No, I wish I was. But no, I’m too scared to go and I have too much school work. I don’t know anyone in our lab that’s going either, but it’s a small lab.
Q: But last year you told me that you went with your parents, professor and entire lab to some demonstrations. So what has changed?
Saman: (laughs) I know it’s really late where you are. Do you have a few hours for me to go through all the reasons? There are so many reasons. Where do I begin?
Last year we were all caught in excitement, in energy; everything in our lives was put on to the side. But reality slowly crept up on us. We have exams, deadlines, work. We can’t stay in that state of excitement forever.
A lot of our friends who were more active were given very severe sentences. You remember what happened to Hossein, right? And so many others. Why should we put ourselves in that situation? To change what?
I’ve also kept you up to date with stuff that the security personnel and Basij do to harass us students in school, remember? And they’ve increased forces in the streets tenfold for this hejab nonsense too. So there are forces everywhere. These things both create an inverse reaction: students hate the government all the more. But it also frightens us all the more. Forces are everywhere, the fear is ever-present.
A lot of people criticize the leaders, Mousavi and Karoubi, for being too soft and passive. They don’t give protesters enough reason and enough motivation to go out and risk their lives. Personally, I think these people making these critiques are only half right. Mousavi and Karoubi have not given us enough reasons, but not because they are not courageous enough, but because they are wise. I think this actually shows some maturity in our politics. Forty years ago a ruthless, charismatic Khomeini opened [verbal] fire on the Shah and asked people to risk their lives, families, everything for his cause. And they obeyed. But Mousavi isn’t willing to risk that much, and to take that much responsibility. I am in favor of this. What is the point of getting thousands of people killed? What did it gain us the first time? I hate Khamenei as much as anyone, but that doesn’t mean we go out in the streets and kill a thousand people, and get ten times more on our side killed as well.
There are other reasons. You know everyone at our universities wants to go abroad. I’m going next year. I don’t know a single student who is willing to stay. We all have plans to go abroad, so we don’t want to risk our admission and buying our military service for some trivial protest that will not change anything anyways.
Another reason we keep talking about are families. Last year, moms and dads would go with their children. But after everything that happened, parents are so scared that they either lock their kids up (laughs) you remember what happened with you last year for 16 Azar?
So if they don’t lock up their kids, they just totally discourage them from going. I know of my friends who’ve had big fights in the house, but of course, in the end, what the parents say always wins. And the parents have a right to be worried. If you go, dying is the best that can happen. What if you lose a limb? Go blind? Get raped? Who knows what will happen? When our friend’s dad who was buddies with Khamenei couldn’t do anything, what can our poor parents do? [Referring to Mohsen Rouholamini who died last year, and whose father was an advisor to Mohsen Rezaie’s presidential campaign]
Q: What do you think about the Green Movement?
Saman: what do you mean?
Q: Some people say the movement is “dead.” Do you agree with their statement?
Saman: I strongly disagree. We don’t have to go in the street and face bullets so that others can see and cry their eyes out and applaud us and give us a “you exist” sticker. We are the ones who know about each other, we are the ones who can say the movement is alive or isn’t. We are the ones who see each other every day and talk every day and know about each other. We don’t care if someone says the movement is alive or dead or if it’s spending its first night in the grave [“shabeh ghabr” a term used in Islamic contexts indicating the first night of someone’s afterlife]. It’s none of their business. Of course we’re alive and of course we still believe in the movement. We don’t have to go out in the street to prove it to anyone.